Something Worths Thinking

[pippichan]

While watching a movie entitled "The Thirteenth Floor" last night, I was wondering what if by any chance I discovered that the world I lived in was only a computer simulation? Then I began to imagine myself as Makubex in Get Backers who's forced to face the fact that he's just a VR - a figure made of computer data. If I had been in his place, what would I've done?

With many people fear of being vanished just like a vapour when they die, doesn't the idea that you're merely a file of data shake you? I mean, whoever created you can erase you anytime they feel like doing it and no reason is very much needed.

Do you ever think about it? Or, you really believe that you're real and live in real world. If that's the case, can you define what 'real' is? Is it something that can be see or touch? Well, if we're VR and live in VR world, we can see and touch things there. Does it make them real? So, what is 'real' actually?

And the important question of all is are we real people who really live in real world?

[rhein]

oh, pie, what's gotten into you?

well, your description is almost the same as one of arnold's movie. a little kid had a golden ticket which allowed him to enter the movies world where arnold was the hero. at first arnold didn't know that the world he's living was just a movie.

yeah, it's creepy to realise that your whole world which you think is a real world turns out into a movie or a vr.

but if that's the case then i think you got two options :
one, keep living your life the way it were, pretend you've never discover the truth or better yet, forget the truth and assume the knowledge of truth is just a dream.
two, if you discover that you're living in vr world, try to rebel. ;D

have you seen a movie where the villain is from the vr? he's created for some police training project. his personality was derived from the compilation of some top super-clever villains. then he somehow realised that he's in a vr world. he made contact with his creator, used his creator pride as a scientist to free him from vr world and made him real. he succeeded. he made real chaos in real world before the hero could nailed him down and brought him back to vr world and vanished him for good. wow! what a fiction movie, ay?

as for me, i won't really care of the fact that if i'm a vr and my creator can just erase just like that. coz you know what? if you believe in GOD existance, human being is somewhat the same. GOD can just erase you from this world, don't you think? one morning you've just woke up when suddenly... bam! a truck hits your house w/ you in it and crush you body. before you know it, you've already gone, disappear for good. is there life after death? i guess so? but then a ghost hunter like reverend mao met you and kill you for good that your soul's disappear for good. you're just gone. no more.

what an imagination, huh?

[pippichan]

Ah, yeah, I've seen the movie you mentioned! But I forget the title (not the arnold movie). ;D

Hm... I think if I figure out that I'm a VR, I won't be able to forget it and just pretend that I don't know. I can't just live my life as usual because I'm not the same me. Everything I know and believe won't be the same again. So, I guess I'll do the second option; rebel (gosh, I'm sounding like Makubex now! Should I create an atomic bomb too? ). My body, mind and feeling are mine - all mine - and I'll get them back, somehow. ;D

Yeah, I realise it's kinda the same, but thinking that the one who have power to erase your existence is actually a human and not God ... Well, I don't like the idea.

[Teahouse Keeper]

Hahahaha! Pippichan, you watched 13th floor? I watched that some time back too! It's really great, eh? I really enjoyed it. It was so cool and unexpected. I think it's more realistic than Matrix which is more like a comic book.

So, you're saying that a human is doing the erasing and not God? Well, if that's the case, then hell yeah. Let's break out of here, man! Take Rhein along! How can we just forget or pretend we don't know?! Even Truman broke free of his fake world even though he was there since the day he was born.

You know, sometimes, when you lie in bed at night, do you get the feeling that everything's not real and it's all just a dream? When you fall asleep, you don't know anything anymore. You don't know who you are, what's your name, where you are. Everything is just turned off, like when you turn off your computer. Your memory comes back slowly only when you wake. The dreams at night are not real. The world that you wake up to somehow seems unreal too...

I know I feel pain and other emotions, but...something is still not quite right. It's kinda like Matrix. When I told this to someone, he was really surprised that I felt this way. I said, "Don't you feel this way too?". He said, "No." and looked at me as if I said something really weird

Well, if you think of this world and the universe as being in God's computer system...then how can we escape? Yeah, Pippichan, it's like Makubex and Babylon City. I mean who rules in Babylon City? And how to break free? If Makubex was willing to give his life to break free, then I would do the same.

Ah....Rhein, what are the titles of your movies?? I can't guess...

[rhein]

wow, matrix and some vr movies has really gotten into us, ay?

well, pie, if you're going to rebel then teahouse keeper and me are w/ you. so, what are you going to do now? got any plan?

ehm, i really try to think of the title, but i completely forget it. see... this is my flaw. i watched too many movies, novel, manga that i sometimes forgot their titles though i still remember their story.

but i've searched the web. the one w/ arnold in it is entitled 'the last action hero'. the vr one with denzel washington in it is entitled 'virtuosity'. quite an action! you should watch them.

[pippichan]

Yeah, teahouse keeper, most normal people don't bother to think that way. I guess it's because I'm not normal I question this. But, what is 'normal' anyway? Ah, maybe I'm just thinking too much.

Hm... if you're a religious person, maybe thinking that you're in God's computer system isn't so bad because you've got free will. But is the free will God's given us really free? What makes you so sure that God hasn't prepared scripts for every options we may choose? Like an rpg game with multi stories and endings. If that's the case, the free will is no longer free will, right?

And let's say we're succeed in breaking free from this vr world God created, what's next? What'll we find outside?

[rhein]

i think it'll still be a free will. at least we got a choice, though we can't escape our fate, which is death. we all gonna die someday, ay?

and the question 'what'll we find outside' is a question which begs to another more important question. are we brave enough to break through though we don't know what await us there? what if it's worse outside? like matrix. it's a worse reality compared to the comfortable virtual world. what if we can't survive even for a minute outside?

[iwakami]

We are people............we live in a world.............
SO yeah!! ^^

[pippichan]

Yeah, the truth is often worse than the fake. But if we're afraid to face truth, how can we even say that we 'truly' live?! I think I'd prefer truth than lies no matter how bad the truth may be. At least it can be a piece of 'reality' I can hold on.

Well, life is always about gambling. Even in vr world created by God where we can have 'free will' to choose, we gamble too because we don't know what will happen next. So, if we're brave enough to gamble in vr world, why don't gamble outside too?

[rhein]

i agree. truth is better than fake things or sweet lips that lies. i like truth and sincerity which is getting more and more hard to find these days.
geez! i sounded so serious and pessimistic, ay? well, who cares? it's the truth, ay?

so, what if the reality is much worse than you thought you could bear? will you regret striving to find it?

awww.... this thread has connection w/ the regret thread, ay?

[Teahouse Keeper]

Oh, Pippichan, actually a lot of people have questioned whether we have free will or not. If everything is destined, how can we have free will? Whatever we choose will be the thing that's destined to happen. Ah, anyway, I don't believe we're in any kind of computer....life has no meaning if this is true.

To be able to choose and change the course of our lives....that's something that's unique to humans because an animal just lives out its life without being able to change anything.

Mm....yeah, I was also thinking that perhaps the truth may be awful. Is the ugly truth worth giving our lives for? Considering Matrix, everybody was actually inside some kind of capsule while they lived in the lie. Do we want to know that our bodies are actually inside capsules while our minds are living "normally" in a virtual world? Why did the main character risk his life to destroy the beautiful lie?

Why would I want to break out of the lie and see a horrible reality?

[pippichan]

A lie is still a lie, no matter how beautiful it may be. How can we know for sure if the truth is really awful if we don't find it out ourselves? It's like if you never eat a chocolate and you ask someone who ever ate it how does a chocolate taste. He/she replies, "Oh, it's sweet and yummy." So, you know that a chocolate tastes sweet and yummy but you know it not from your own experience. It's because someone tell you so. And it's not 100% accurate because each person has different taste. Maybe if you ask another person, he/she may tell you that a chocolate tastes bitter. Is it true that a chocolate tastes sweet and yummy? Or is it bitter? To know for sure, you've gotta eat it yourself, of course.

Yeah, the truth may be awful. But if there's a chance the truth can be awful, surely there's a chance too that it can be good. We just have to find it out. And if we do find out and it is really awful, regret won't do any good because we're on a one way street. We can't go back. We just have to move forward. I believe we can overcome everything as long as we don't give up.

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
(Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfeld)

[rhein]

well, you're sounded so resolute. ok, then, i'm w/ you, pie. but i think you're forgetting something in your 'speech'. coz i think as long as we're all together, everything will be ok. coz we'll support and strengthen one another, ay?

btw, it's a nice lines. who's natasha bedingfeld?

and i gotta ask this. how should we be able to know if we're living in the real reality and if we're not? coz like teahouse keeper, i think we're living in the real reality now. what do you think?

[pippichan]

Of course to know for sure whether you live in 'real' world or not, first you must know the definition of 'real' itself. That's what I asked you guys in the beginning of this thread. But so far, there's no one's able to define it.

Do I believe that I live in real world? Hm... I won't be so sure saying 'yes' to the question. Ah, I don't know, I just think that it's something that worths our attention. Something to make us see life from different angle.

*sigh* I guess it's gonna be a mystery until the day we die.

Natasha Bedingfeld is a singer and her single is called 'Unwritten'. Pretty good song, considering the lyrics.

[rhein]

ah, don't be so serious, pie! you make me laugh!
you, so serious? it's just not your nature!
you're my silly gal, you're my freeek! ;D

[Teahouse Keeper]

Ah, well.....Pippichan, what you want to know and what you're asking are actually in the realm of Philosophy. Those old French and Greek philosophers have always debated about existence, meaning of life, reality, consciousness, self etc. There is no end to the debates because the issues are theoretical and subjective.

What is real? The last time I took a brief course on Philosophy, the idea of perception was split into so many aspects that I got confused I never thought looking at something could be dissected like that. I don't remember what it was about because it's been some time ago, but it was definitely very interesting and fun.

There are no fixed answers to philosophical questions. I thought the philosophy class I attended was amusing and very interesting at the same time. Amusing because everybody was very seriously going around in circles without accomplishing anything. No evidence could be produced, it was all just talk.

Of course, I'm not saying that philosophical questions are silly. I think about those questions all the time. It's just that, there are no fixed answers. I like Philosophy because I enjoy the mental exercise of thinking about philosophical things.

Do I live in a real world? At the moment, I believe so. But when I sleep, this world ceases to exist for me. So, this world is not real anymore. Therefore, this world is not real. The world becomes real again when I wake. Therefore, I create the world every time I wake. So again, the world is not real because everything that I perceive is a product of my perception and don't exist by themselves (how can I be sure the world exists separately from my perception?).

Conclusion, this world is not real. Am I real?.....

Hahaha...I like your chocolate comparison. Pippichan. It's the same as what I read in a book, except that it's apple juice. Yeah, I agree with you totally about chocolate. Hahaha...I thought you were the pessimistic sort? You don't believe that one person can make a difference and yet you believe that we can overcome everything as long as we don't give up?

What is the likelihood of the truth being good rather than bad? We don't know. There is no guarantee. At the moment, if this is an unreal world, it's not too bad. Do we want to sacrifice what we have here to pursue something we don't know?

[pippichan]

You know a classic movie called 'It's a wonderful life'? About a man who wants to commit suicide but an angel shows him that without his existence, persons he knows won't be the same? I often imagine if I don't exist in this world, won't it make any difference towards the world and the people in it? What have I done so that my existence changed everything? Seems to me even without me, the world's still turning around, people're living their lives as usual. No difference. I guess that's why I think that one person can't make big difference.

As for me saying 'we can overcome everything as long as we don't give up' is based on my own experience in living my life. If I gave up, I'd have slit my wrist long time ago and wouldn't have been here, talking to you. I don't give up until now, so, eventhough my life sucks and no matter what bad things will come in my way, I know I can beat them.

Ah, I'm such a paradox person.

[Teahouse Keeper]

Ah! Pippichan, I haven't seen the movie but I know what you mean. I think about the same thing too. But, there's something you're missing.

Yeah, even if the whole human race suddenly vanishes overnight, Earth will still be spinning (as long as it's not hit by an asteroid or vaporised by aliens ). The human race means nothing in the grand scheme of things. In fact, considering the vastness of the universe, human beings are nothing. Our lives are nothing.

But on the ground level, I believe there's cause and effect. You cannot be sure that without your existence, things will remain the same as they are now. Everything is connected in intricate ways. If a thing happens, it'll cause changes elsewhere. One thing leads to another. If you didn't exist, people you know will be affected in different and unknown ways. Good or bad events that should have happened may not happen.

Then consider people like Mother Teresa, Hitler, inventors of electricity etc. These are individuals who have made a difference. Although Hitler is an extreme example, he is also one man who changed the course of history.

So one person can make a big difference, whether it is you or a famous person.

Yeah, it's true we can overcome everything as long as we don't give up Oh? You would've slit your wrist? Is your life that bad? I guess you know that suicide won't help at all. I heard that suicide victims are not granted peace after death. They wander around miserably, neither in heaven nor hell.

Hahaha.....I guess everyone has paradoxical elements Humans are like that and that's why they are complex.

[pippichan]

Yeah, yeah, but I need some 'real' proofs that my existence's really important. Something to convince me that my life's not just a waste of time.

If you really wanna know how bad my life is, listen to Simple Plan's song called 'Welcome to My Life'. That's how my life is.

[rhein]

ah, pie, everyone has their own difficult times. my life's also like simple plan's song "welcome to my life". i've heard it many times now and still like it. and i've thought of taking a bottle of sleeping pills at once too so many times. i think it a good way to commit suicide. just sleep and never wake up anymore.

but, you see i'm still here. and you play a great part of it too. we support each other. and that's beautiful. that's something that make my cold heart warm.

and every lives mean something to others. for ex :
my bf told me that w/o me around him, he wouldn't have worked as hard as today. he'd just wasted his life. he'd probably even dragged to a bourgoise life. so that's what my life means for him.
when my dad passed away, he took a great part of me, especially my confidence. and my heart feels cold eversince. nothing can make it as warm as before.

and you, pie... there're many times when i was down, at work, feeling miserable, i read your email and our posts here in this forum... and i laughed... i felt better right away. that's what you and you guys here means for me. so pie... you mean something for me. perhaps by that you won't get a medal or acknowledgement from the world. but you get my love and gratitude that you're there... that i have you... doesn't it mean something for you?
so stop thinking that you're nothing. your life means something for me, ok.

[pippichan]

Ah, I'm glad that I mean something to you, rhein. And thanks so much for your love and gratitude. Hm... are you sure I deserve those? I mean, I did nothing, just talking something stupid or weird.

No, I'm not dreaming about getting a medal or acknowledgment from the world. I guess I just need to feel 'wanted'. People in my life often act that I'm disposable and replaceable.

Anyway, you've heard "Welcome to my life"? Yeah, it's a very good song. And just like you, I never get tired hearing it! ;D

[reverie]

i think ppl who think of you as disposable and replaceable are ppl who aren't worth your attention. so you shouldn't even think of them. i always think highly of my best friends. sometimes even more than my bf. coz when you're down, a sincere friendship is one of those things that can bring you up again.
and talking is sometimes just what a person needs in their bad times. words have enormous power to a person. words can kill ppl but they can also save ppl lives.

as for songs that i like to hear now is linkin park's numb and simple plan's welcome to my life. hearing them give a sense of breaking out... like letting go some depression and disappointment in my life. i couldn't hear 'em too often though.

[pippichan]

Oh, I wish more people think the way you think, rie. (It's still weird to call you 'rie', you know?! ;D). That way, I can be happier in my life! And sometimes, I think life's very, very unfair (well, I won't say it's ever fair!). I mean, I've tried so hard to do my best but still there're people who think I'll never be good enough. Why can't they just look at themselves and realize that they're not perfect either!? Even lousier than me!? Instead, they think they're always right in everything! Yeah, this is where 'Numb' suits perfectly.

[ChaTeAubRianD]

gee, you people think too much. ....

[pippichan]

Hahaha... yeah, I'm thinking too much! ;D

Hey, Chateaubriand, where have you been?

[ChaTeAubRianD]

i was busy and my PC got logged. hehe. it rally feels good to be back ;D

[reverie]

nice to have you back too.
you think that we think too much? what abt you? a recently hot-headed person? what makes you become that way?

well, pi, you'll get used to it. it's a kinda nice nickname, isn't it? someone used it in her fiction. ;D

btw, it's the same thing here, pie. your life is so similar as mine.
do you like lindsay lohan's "rumor"? sometimes i'd like to sing it out loud to those lousy ppl's face.
... emm.... feels good just imagining me doing it. ;D

[pippichan]

Hahaha... I know it's a nice name. That's why I picked it. But, I don't think you're the same with rie, you know. You're not that soft. ;D

Ah, you listen to lindsay lohan's song? *nod* It's played on tv many times, eh? Yup, yup, good lyric! Hey, don't you think she's kinda like britney? Hahaha... I imagine you saying like that to your mother or anyone nosy around you.... They'll get heart attack right away!

[reverie]

oh, no... my mom can't understand english.

yeah, she does look like britney, ay? wonder if she'll get sexier and sexier like britney too. but she's cute ain't she? you've seen freaky friday, ay? she's cute there. wonder what my mom will do if she becomes me. ;D but i don't wanna be her ever for a day. w/ back pain like that. oh.. pls... poor mom. but sometimes she can get very annoying and even irritating, can she? *shaking head* well, that's mom.

[ChaTeAubRianD]

i also think about those kinda stuff but not as deep as you do, i mean you people have wild imaginations and stuff.

i dunno why i'm hot headed these days. maybe it's because of the people surrounding me. they are sooo irritating.